[CLUG] Goldmine clone

[adam beecher]

> For a so called newbie you know quite a lot about the web side of it
> already..
>
Linux newbie. Web knacker.

> Ah! Say hi to Helen for me then!
>
Do I have to?

> I managed to install IMP here at home and played with it for a while but
> some of the design behind it seems ridiculous - open a new window to
> compose mail?
>
Yes, that bugged me too. But it's the fact that it's a feckin' enormous
window that the composer doesn't even fit in properly that bugged me. Easily
cured though.

> Twig just lacked user interface features altogether. Before you get the
> wrong idea about me, you may have seen some of the mails flyinf around
> last August or so when we were designing cork.linux.ie, I strenously
> avoided using frames or Javascript in it. But for a web application I
> want something to be as functional and as easy to use as possible.
> Twig was designed from the ground up to be very cross-browser
> compatible. I'm aiming at version 3 or 4 browsers. That doesn't mean I
> use stuff like dhtml or netscape layers because they're not stable
> enough or browset compatible, but I'd like to use frames and
> javascript..
>
Which is why I suggested Twig, I think it would make an ideal platform to
build your project on, with all the functionality upgraded to suit later
browsers. But you're already doing that, so I'll shut up now. Oh, and I
signed up for this list about three days ago. I hardly knew what Linux *was*
last August, stuck as I was on a BSDi machine, with mocky-a priveliges.

> There's also OCS from a company in South Africa which looks great but is
> lacking in certain small areas.
>
I must have a look at that. Another company that does very good work in the
web-based email field is http://www.netwinsite.com. Written in C or C++, no
source code, ugly, but a fantastic mailer, with loads of fudgies. Might be
an idea to have a look at it for ideas.

> I wish there was a program that did all that I wanted. I'd use it in the
> morning!
>
That would spoil your fun though wouldn't it. :)

> I did a job tracking system for my 4th year project, the homepage still
> gets hits and someone wanted to take it over last July but I heard
> nothing else from him..
> Check it out at http://members.xoom.com/xeer/ts/ (I think) although the
> Xoom frames screwed up the demo I put on there. Download the tar.gz and
> point your browser at the demo directory to see what it does.
>
I passed through your homepage completely by accident some time back and
came across that, I *think* from one of the PHP sites or somesuch. As soon
as the demo screwed up on me, I was gone. I tend to zoom through these
projects as fast as I can. I usually do a "Open frame in new window", have a
quick gawk and move on, unless something catches my eye. Sorry, but yours
didn't. :) Not your fault though, I think I was looking for something else.

> Several people here will back up the asertion that open source doesn't
> generally create new and exciting projects. Open Source is brilliant at
> doing a great job of creating a decent version of an existing
> product/idea. As a certain other person put it, you'll get innovation in
> a small directed group working closely together, the masses will bring
> it to fruition and make it good and usable. (paraphrased!)
>
I agree, although I think there's something to be said for picking either a
cathedral or bazaar approach and sticking to it throughout. Either approach
works very well, but there still has to be strict organisation, CVS, bug
tracking, the whole shooting match, and I think that's the reason so many
projects get left by the wayside. And unfortunately, or fortunately,
depending on the way you look at it, the open source model/movement is
changing rapidly, and I think personally that there's a good chance it will
implode on itself - the greedy (like me :) getting involved and
commercializing it.

For example, I have a project I'm working on at the moment, and I would
*like* to open it up to the community, but I also don't want to lose control
over it. RedHat have proved you can have your cake and eat it, but they've
also put a fear into people like me - I don't want to work on creating this
product only to see it bundled and shrink-wrapped with someone else's logo
on the cover. I want to be part of the open source community, and I have
great respect for it, but ultimately I'm a businessman. Not a very good one,
but a businessman nonetheless. :)

> At the moment I'm using Apache/MySQL/PHP3 with phplib 7.2
> Developing on Linux, for? any Unix I guess, and clients of course can be
> any operating system with a modern browser.
>
Good, thanks for that, it's helpful. I can handle most of that, apart from
the classes. I work on a Windoze machine though, with only a PPP connection,
so I won't be able to test real email functionality. I'm waiting for news on
a new one though, and as soon as I get that RH6.0 will be going on it, so I
might be more of a help then. I can also work with it "live" on my server if
necessary, thanks to Surf NoLimits (g'wan Esat ya good thing!). The server
runs RH6.0 too (the reason I'll be installing it on the local machine), but
I would presume it'll be entirely platform independant? Speaking of RH, any
o' them CD's from LAID left? :)

One further point - it might be an idea to look into the development status
of Apache and PHP a bit. Apache 2 and PHP 4 aren't all that far off, and
whatever about Apache, there's functionality in PHP 4 that would negate the
need for PHPlib at all. I realise that it'll have to be backwards
compatible, but you might as well try to be forwards compatible too. Just a
suggestion.

> MySQL is my prefered db too, but I'd like to try my hand at postgres but
> it's probably not needed because phplib abstracts things to a high
> level.
>
You're welcome to play with it on my server if you wish anyway. I never use
it, and the only reason it's on the machine is because it was preinstalled
with RH6. MySQL has been proved to be a very effective DB anyway.

> I'll use classes alright, but I prefer to use the classes provided by
> phplib and build code on top of them. Seperate groups of functions have
> seperate files which can be included. Unfortunetly, I found that to use
> the sessions from phplib I couldn't create abstract mail or imap classes
> so I put all my mail functions into a seperate file which I include in
> any file which needs the function.
>
Well, as I said, I'm not fond of them. I understand them to some extent,
however I just don't see the logic to them - anything a class can do a
function can do just as well. I don't like all those ->'s anyway. :)

> A lot of my code is straight line, but with a small bit of thought put
> into it, as well as indenting!
>
Well, don't get me wrong, if my code is released to the public, it'll be
indented (not by hand though!) and commented - I just prefer to work with
completely straight line code when I'm developing for myself. Helen thinks
I'm weird. She's probably right. :)

[database nim... blah...]
Just one thing in there I want to comment on, the name. I don't see anything
wrong with NIM, in fact I quite like it - there's a "unixy" sound to it
(sed, chown, awk, NIM!), but it's catchy too. The only flaw being that it's
quite like the acronym NYM (confused yet?). I vote for it though.

> The message is stored in /www/hosts/nim/var/msgs/ in a sub-dir with the
> same name as the local user the email was for, in this case, me! It uses
> an md5sum and microtime() to create a random filename too.. Can't
> remember if I check in case the name is there, but that's easy to do.
>
 How 'bout using (bugger, bugger, wassit called again, wait till I fire up
Apache, mutter) tempnam()? Just cos it's got temp in the name doesn't mean
is has to be temporary! :)

> I'd like to meet up with you to talk about the IMAP side of it. To be
> honest I've only ever really used pop3 because imap gets very unwieldy
> with lots of folders..
>
Don't get me wrong now, I'm not the email hacker I was on about! I only use
IMAP (occasionally) because switching between POP and IMAP is transparent,
and I can log into my account through Twig or summat else to check my email
from somewhere else. I was just making a suggestion - I would have thought
that IMAP would suit better, since it has folders by design and PHP is
engineered to work with IMAP by default. It has it's faults too though, for
instance if you log into an IMAP account with POP settings in the client,
chances are your IMAP settings will be destroyed.

Also, before you get the wrong idea from me, I'm not a "real" programmer -
I'm a self-taught Perl and PHP hacker, who just happens to be reasonably
good at it, through no fault of my own. :) Before last year, the last time I
did any programming was in BASIC. About six years before. In a course. In
Sawmill Street. :) I just got bored with HTML and JavaScript and moved on to
more interesting things. I don't do that book-learnin' thing, and I think
that a degree is something you get when it's hot. Just though I'd clear that
up.

> But I remember this is one thing I didn't like. If you have an email
> open already and want to add someone else to the "To:" you click on
> contacts and you lose the email! I may be wrong but that's the way it
> seemed to me.
>
Don't remember, but you're probably right. You could avoid that using
onClick to simulate a post, passing the information on to the contacts
screen. Most of those things could be cured in one way or another.

> > Okey-dokey. I'll reiterate though, I still think you're a loony
> > working on
>
> I've heard worse :)
>
S'alright, most people think I'm a loony now anyway. Not me, I think I'm a
geek. Getting the hat to prove it an' all!

> I think the Irish Linux Community has garned quite a bit of attention
> lately, but it's always the same people doing most of the work. I doubt
> we have the motivated pool of talent available to throw at a large
> project. If nobody is interested in this I'm still going to carry on
> with it. I need this functionality at work yesterday..
>
And rightly so. As will I with my projects. But still... :)

Tell you what guv'nor (said he, slipping on the sheepskin jacket), I'll help
you with this if you help me with mine. There are overlaps anyway - I'll be
needing a permissions system for my project, and that's a bit over my head
because I want a Unix-style system. I think that would fit into your project
quite nicely too. Basically, it's a hierarchal web publishing yokey-bob,
like Midgard, but not really. I guess it's aimed towards small to medium
sized sites, but mostly it's for my own benefit for creating and updating
client and internal sites. Saves a lot of hassle if you can just access the
filesystem/content through a web-based GUI, and even more if you can
convince them to do it themselves. A kind of cross between Links, Webmin and
eventually, phpMyAdmin for sites, if you will.

It's just part of a larger modular system I'm working towards though, to
install on our own machine for a few portals we'll be setting up in the new
year, because it's perfect for news or shopping sites. Ultimately, I'd like
to release it shrink-wrapped with a distribution of Linux, Apache, PHP,
MySQL et al, aimed at all those people who will inevitably find themselves
sticking a wee Linux box in the corner for their website. Which, in my
opinion, is simply a question of when rather than if. RedHat? Bunch of
girls!

Sorry about the length of this again, that's just the way I work. :)

adam


__________________________________________

adam beecher - CEO & Core Geek - ieWebs
.plan
workmail ... adam at iewebs.com
playmail ... whatever at adambeecher.com
workweb ... http://ieWebs.com
playweb ... http://adambeecher.com
phone ... 353 86 2529887
fax ... 353 86 8544767
snail ... Box 81, Eglinton St, Cork, IRELAND
__________________________________________