[ILUG] EU constitution
typedef at eircom.net
Thu Mar 10 12:50:53 GMT 2005
Colm MacCarthaigh wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2005 at 11:32:00AM +0000, Bryan O'Donoghue wrote:
>>As someone who opposes a Federal Euopean Union (precisely because I
>>doubt in it's ability to govern in place of an Irish parliment ),
> In fairness, it's hard to do a worse job.
That's one of the first refuges of the pro-Federalist.
Ah sure begorra, the paddies can barely leave the pub... let alone enact
>>conglomeration of nominally democratic entities, but, the structure of
>>the EU, is not a democracy... quite clearly. Yes, apparently, that's the
>>fault of those of us, who don't want a Federal Union... and alarmingly,
>>the "fix" the Federalists seem to be proposing is A) Not to make any
>>real moves to reforming the Fundamental structure of having the
>>Comission at the Apex of European legislative enunciation B) to make it
>>easier, for large voting blocs in the quasi-Democratic  Comission to
>>push proposals through the Comission and C) to give more power to the
>>EU, in the process.
> Democracy is about empowering large voting blocs, that's what democracy
> is. It's majoritarianism.
> Your mails seem like contradictory jingoistic non-sensical ramblings.
I'm not going to rise to that Colm.
> You wan't more a more power to the democratically elected parliament but
> describe yourself as an anti-Federalist. When you suggest things like
Yes. I don't see how there's a large problem with the following proposition.
A: I oppose Federalism, certainly, in the current form of the EU.
B: I support Democracy.
C: I won't support any more power ceding to the EU, in the abscence of
the European Parliment being the Apex legislative function of the Union.
I find the delirous drive to validate anything that comes from the EU,
by virtue of the fact that it does come from the EU, very lacking in
If Australia can support removal of Monarchy, but, not at any cost, I
think it would be quite positive to acknowledge, that Federalism _could_
be good, for Ireland, but, that ceding more power, to a structure, that
has so _recently_ shown it's brazen disregard for Democratic
institutions, by humilating the Euopean Parliment, over Patents, is not
the sort of path to effective legislative governance.
Then again, you probably are of the opinion that not blinkeredly
supporting carte blanche, anything that an EU Federalist utters is
tantamount, to being some sort of fervent nationalist.
I think that is an LCD style of debate... and while I admit it works, on
TV... generally, it's not so good in internet McFora.
>>To my mind, the only accountable, entity with a competence at Euopean
>>level is the European Parliment and unfortunately, the proposals of the
>>constitution _don't_ put that democratic entity at the Apex of governance.
> ... doesn't that imply a greater federalism? If more authority is to be
> divested to a European-level parliament, unless you're talking about a
> single superstate that implies greater federalism.
I don't rule that out. In principal. I won't lie and say I favour it either.
However, you seem to be delibrately (I'm assuming) missing that
condoning a more democratic Europe as a requirement to the power that
Europe 'already' has, is not akin to supporting Federalism.
Perhaps in your mind it is, and I'll admit, I'd rather there was _no_
political Union at all... but, since there is... and since it is clearly
failing to represent the views of people who bother to vote for European
level issues, that fundamental breakage, in strucutres must be fixed, to
be a representative reflection of the desires of people.
And quite curtley, until such time as the Union is 'democratic', I don't
see how _any_ further moves towards Federalism, can be promoted,
especially by people who claim left wing ideology, but, are prepaired to
set aside core tennants like equality... due to who knows, self
righteous claims to "European vision" or self loathing of their own
countries, who knows ?
>> Recent events with the patent fiasco, only reaffirm the belief that
>>the EU, is incompetent to govern effectively.
> And you think the Oireachtas isnt?
Acutally, I think the Oireachtas, is far more, effective in representing
the people it's supposed to represent then the whole EU, put together is.
Then again, while you accuse me of jingoism... it's important to note
that a recurrent theme, in your postings, seems to be the Irish
inability to govern themselves.
Oddly, this same argument was used for hundreds of years, by Imperial
Britian, to justify, _not_ having Irish self governance.
Indeed a variant of this argument was used to justify "bringing
civilisation to the savages" in Africa, aka, the "White man's burdeon".
It's actually a pretty insulting position, but a common one, I accept.
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